Interview with Patricia Rabanye - MACUA/WAMUA

Interviewer: Thank you for being here today, Ms. Rabanye. Based on your experiences from your work with MACUA/WAMUA and as a resident of the Khutsong township, which is directly impacted by mining activities, what are the major conflict lines in South Africa’s mining sector, and which struggles do communities face?

Ms. Rabanye: Honestly, as a mining community, a host community, we've had huge struggles, especially regarding consultation. Mining companies don't consider community consultation as a priority. I think it's a matter of not understanding the importance of involving ordinary communities in decision-making. As a hosting community, when companies come and go, they extract minerals from your place and the environment is not stating that the wealth has been extracted from your own backyard. The condition of my township, how it looks like, it's devastating.

We have big companies operating in this community. So those are the major struggles that we have, that we've got all these big companies, but they don't see the importance of involving ordinary people in decision-making. And that is what the community yearns for: to be part of the decision-making, to be heard, to be given a platform. So they are only here for profit, and they put profit before the people.

Interviewer: This is a good introduction to the topic and leads to my next question, relating to your history as an activist. When did you decide that you wanted to dedicate your life to your community's quest for justice and sustainable development? Was there a specific tipping point that you can remember?

Ms. Rabanye: For me, getting to know that as an ordinary community member, I have a right to know what comes in and goes out in the mining industry in my area, gave me a huge concern. My grandparents never worked in a mine. But I do have an uncle who did work in a mine in the early 60s. So, getting to understand that it becomes a problem now for us to even get opportunities in the mining industry, whereas we are a host community. These companies are foreign but as South African people and hosting communities of these companies, we are not getting opportunities. It is an injustice to you as communities.

I got an interest finding out more about the mining industry from my uncle and he was relaying this story of unfair labor practices. There was money that they were paying, but they did not know what the money was for. And to know that they are also contributors, and in one building that stands in Johannesburg to be the one building that was built with their own earned money and being promised that that building will secure generational wealth for their families. And yet they are not benefiting from this. For me it was like, you are robbed, but you are not even aware that you are being robbed. Not only you, but all the people that were working in the mines at that time.

Like as families of those, I felt like we need to know more how it happened and where we did lose as a community. So that's one thing that for me was a tipping point. Also to see that I've got young kids now they are teenagers who have finished high school, but I'm unable to take them to study further. And the mining companies are (supposed to be) here to assist us as ordinary community members who are unable to make sure that our kids reach their full potential and their dreams. And they're not coming to play.

And thanks to MACUA (Mining Affected Communities United in Action) for taking the initiative of being part of that because they are the ones who came in and opened our minds and our eyes to say, “guys, this is what you need, and this is a tool that you can use to fight the injustice that you are facing as a community”. So, information is what they brought to us and having this conversation is one thing that ignited my passion to say most of the time we take decisions based on things we think of but we are not even aware that we need to be informed with information and then take the right decision.

We have to fight with mining companies and people who work in these mines, even the CEOs of these mines are not living in South Africa. They are not even living in our own townships. Just to come and test “I'm operating in this area, I'm taking wealth from this area. Let me just go and see how the people are living”. They don't have time for this. So, for me, it was something that I took personal to say I need to learn more and yes, MACUA came in and they disseminated this information, and I was like, wow, now we are talking.

Having the right information, for me it's a great tool to use. You just need to know how to use it and when to use it and whom to use it to. To get to know that when I fight, I fight not only for my people but for my neighbors also, for my whole community. Our community has been taken advantage of because of lack of information, so let me start there to say, yeah, I have been doing this for a long time and for me it's still a passion.

Understanding that as women, we have been taken advantage of because we have been put in a state where we also accepted that the women's work is only in the house, in your house chores, and that's it. For me, this changed everything because in my core, I do believe that I can do more as a woman like a man can do. And I can even make it better than most men can. You know, it doesn't need physical strength, but what I hold in my gut and in my head, the knowledge that I have. For me empowering women is something that is more powerful because there's a saying that when you teach a woman, you teach a nation, but when you teach a man, you teach an individual.

Interviewer: Which roles do women from your community play in the mining sector, and if they are employed by mining companies, do they face gender-based discrimination or specific challenges?

Ms. Rabanye: Yes, we do have women that are employed in these mining companies, and they have a lot of struggles. Most of them were also happy and excited when they heard that I was going to Paris and they were like, could you please share also our stories as women who are working in these companies because we have been taken advantage of as women. And every time when they meet me, they will always tell me, if there's anyone who wishes to maybe interview a working woman in this industry, please don't hesitate, I'm available. I can give them everything. They always say.

It's so painful to hear that most women, for them to get that opportunity, they had to degrade themselves. They had to forget who they are. Most women, for them getting employed in the mining industry, usually find an opportunity, but you would be told that you need to buy that spot. And someone will tell you, for you to get in, give me 10,000 ZAR (approx. 490 EUR). And you find that you don't have that 10,000 ZAR. And because you don't have 10,000 ZAR they will give you two offers. Either you pay 10,000 ZAR or you sleep with me to get in. And then, because I don't have money, now I'm weighing my options: if I don't do this, my family continues to suffer, and I won't get any other opportunity anywhere else. In addition, this person is threatening to take my information to people from other companies, to say, if this person applies for this job on your company, don't hire them. They may blacklist you and you end up agreeing to the term of saying, okay, I can sleep with you.

And then most of them did this. Some are still doing it, even though they are still employed. They can't get out of the deal, because they are being threatened to say, if you don't give me what I need, when knockoff time you're going to be paraded, and you're going to be dismissed or maybe suspended, because you don't want to do what I need you to do.

So sexual misconduct is one of those things that these women are facing daily. For them to even get a promotion, that's the only way you're going to go. It's not going to be because you are brilliant, because you have the best interests of the company at heart, or you want to bring about change in the company and you want to develop yourself. It's not going to be about that. It's all going to be about that you are a woman. You need to lay down and let a man do what men do to women, and you're going to get promoted. Some do that. They do take those offers. You get a position, but still, you are just going to be assigned. You are not going to do anything meaningful. Men are going to take decisions, and you're just going to be a face that goes with those decisions. Everyone in the mining industry knows this.

So that's a problem, because women are not allowed to grow in the mining industry. They are just there to be taken as puppets, because you must be there. Legislation states that there should be 50-50, and our government (demands) more women in managerial positions, executive positions. For that reason only, you are being put there and it's difficult for women in mining to even come out and tell the truth of what's behind them being in those positions. And for the ones who are still on the ground level, it's also difficult even to have ambitions of putting themselves in managerial positions, because they feel that other women are now oppressing them, they don't want them to grow, but that's not the case. These women are doing those things to protect them, because they don't want them to be exposed to what they are experiencing. Because some women commit suicide after these things.

And as a woman who has experienced that, you kind of feel that I need to protect other women. Therefore, we need also to make sure that we also educate our own women and make sure that they understand what they put themselves in.

I also have a friend who is an essential worker in the mine. She always complains that the company doesn't respect us as women and told me that “We work 12 hours a day without having food underground and they don't allow us anymore to go underground with food and water because of illegal miners that we might bump into underground. 12 hours and with my health condition, I can't take it anymore, but I can't also resign because I've got 2 young boys that are still in high school.” And for me, it's also sad because this is another different story from the ones that have experienced sexual abuse in the industry. The company itself also abuses women (here she refers to labor violations) in a manner that they are not supposed to be abused in. If there is a challenge of illegal miners in that mine, they should have other mechanisms of addressing that issue but not compromising the health and safety of the workers themselves.

Interviewer: You mentioned the small-scale miners. Are women involved in this sector as well?

Ms. Rabanye: Women are there. There's no place where you don't find women. We are all over. There are women who are also engaged in the small-scale mining, but most of them, they don't usually go underground in these abandoned shafts. Only men are allowed to go underground. Women usually just work on the surface because they are also afraid of engaging underground. Hence, they know that these abandoned shafts are not safe, the way they enter them is also not safe. They would prefer to work on the surface. There are women who are also engaged in the small-scale mining, and the number is growing.

This industry is not going anywhere, even though our South African government is not willing to legalize it. Because it's not only foreign nationals who are operating in this illegal Zama Zama (‘to take a risk’; term for illegal mining), as they call it. It's also South African citizens who are also participating in this industry because of the reasons that I have alluded to today. It's difficult to get employment when you are the hosting communities in these companies. So whatever experience that one has, this is how they use it, to engage in small-scale mining. Therefore, we are hoping that the government will take time to legalize the sector. It's growing at a fast pace. Even in Khutsong here we do have those Zama Zama. In South Africa, every mining community has Zama Zama and women are also part of it.

Interviewer: Now that we have heard about the struggles that women face when working in the mining sector, I am also interested to know: which role do women assume in civil society led resistance against injustices in the mining sector?

Ms. Rabanye: As I indicated, WAMUA (Women Affected by Mining United in Action) is one of the organizations with MACUA, and it's a women's organization. What we do is also making sure that women take charge of their life. Not only as mothers, as aunts, as grandmothers, but as leaders. Because the major thing is information. Education is the best way to make sure that women are also liberated. And that they understand the power they hold. So, this is one thing that we always do as WAMUA.

We educate each other. In terms of how to be a great leader, what you aspire to as a person, and what you aspire to be as leader. As WAMUA and MACUA, we wish to see more women in leadership positions. Not only in the organization, but in the community as well. In our municipal offices, we are hoping to see women who understand and support the community initiatives. In making sure that within the mining companies, women are also given platforms. And not only being given platforms but also being considered as institution makers. You know, you can't just sit in a meeting and maybe say two or three words and then you say you're given a platform. Yet whatever you raise, no one is taking it up and there's no follow-up or whatever. What we need is action. Women that understand the importance of being in a leadership position. And understand what leadership is.

Interviewer: That’s a very important point. The inclusion of women should be more than merely performative. Now I will move on to your participation in the OECD forum, where you spoke on the panel “Safeguarding Women's Rights in Mineral Supply Chains: Insights from South Africa”. What led to your participation in the OECD forum and were the reactions that you received afterwards expected?

Ms. Rabanye: Some of the reactions I expected and some I did not expect. With my local municipality, I did not expect them to follow up on what I do as a community member. Because when I came back, I met a lot of them and they were like, “Wow, we saw your videos. We saw your presentations. It was good, it was good. ”Some were happy, and some were excited to see how it would all unfold moving forward. And some were not happy because they kind of felt like I went there to tell on them.

It was surprising, but also for me it was fulfilling. I still have that hope that by continuing doing what I do there is something that is going to happen that is going to be beneficial to my own community and the others around this country. Because not long after I came back, on the day of the national elections, I met with my ward councilor and I was like, okay, we'll see what happens. As I speak to you, there are about three sinkholes that have been rehabilitated. The first one was that one that I spoke of and showed at the OECD. And then the other one happens to be right next to that, but two blocks from that one. And the other one was now being filled next to a primary school right where I live. So, for me, that was not something I expected but hoping for. And I'm glad. Although I had concerns, it's something that we'll see. Moving forward hopefully our government will consider fixing all sinkholes in our community.

I'm also thankful for having that opportunity to come to Paris and share my story and my community’s story because if not, we would have been sitting with these sinkholes being opened and no action being taken. Whatever happened in Paris gave my community hope that there will always be someone willing to assist us in this fight for us as a community. I'd like to mention that there has been a small progress in rehabilitating the sinkholes and the municipality has also committed in making sure that they will fix these sewer line systems and water pipe systems that are leaking so that they also assist in the process of rehabilitation in the community.

Interviewer: Now, looking into the future, what is your wish and advice? Which steps or measures would you like to see implemented by relevant actors, which is the private sector, especially the foreign mining companies, government bodies and also other civil society organizations to strengthen the rights of women and local communities?

Ms. Rabanye: For me, my wish and advice is for our government to recognize that they can't take decisions for communities without communities. Also, the same applies to the mining companies. You can't decide for us as communities what we need, when you don't live in this area and community. I'm hoping that moving forward, they will give us an opportunity on the platform, around the table, hear us, listen to us, and let us decide for ourselves what it is that we need. We have understood the term that says, “our government is a government for the people, by the people”, but it's not working. In fact, it's just a saying. It's just a myth. For me and my community, we wish that the government can take a step back occasionally and not merge between us and the mining companies but be able to monitor and hold the companies accountable.

The educational system in South Africa doesn't empower our young people, doesn't prepare them for work, because it's just a theoretical education. Practicality is not there. So if we are given an opportunity, these are the issues that we will raise in the roundtable and decide upon them, because we feel that we need to have more technical colleges, more technical universities, to make sure that when our young people get into the educational system, they are able to be in the market, they are able to be employed, they are able to create their own businesses, you've got entrepreneurs and all that. We are hoping to make sure that a five-year-old can use a laptop, a computer at home, we have access to internet. It's something that we need to engage with. I wish that the government can allow us as communities a roundtable opportunity and decide on our place as communities.

Because, I mean, I've got a 15-year-old who's out of school now, but unable to use a laptop because he doesn't have information on that, I don't even have a laptop at home. If these companies can allow themselves to come to us and have a roundtable with them, and we indicate these things, we share these things with them, they can work in the best interest of our communities moving forward. Technology plays a huge part in developing a community. It goes a long way. The means to even communicate with you now is through technology, and if we are not able to use it, we are not going to grow as a country, we are not going to grow as individuals. I'm hoping that moving forward that can change. Thank you.

Interviewer: Thank you very much for this comprehensive interview, Ms. Rabanye. This was a very insightful conversation highlighting the struggles that mining-impacted communities (and women in the sector) are faced with in South Africa.